Barbara: I've always enjoyed, or found it interesting to work with people from different cultures and different languages even. So when, when we were -

Stanley: The service end of being a Christian was a big deal with her. Well and with me too.

Barbara: Yeah.

Stanley: But bigger with Barb.

Barbara: So yeah, even before I met Stanley, I had one summer where I worked at a settlement housing in Cleveland, and we worked with Cubans that were moving into the area and, Blacks that lived there. I guess I really noticed it when we moved to Alice, because at first I really could not tell the difference between,

Stanley: Yeah.

Barbara: Anglos and people that were Mexican. I kept telling Stanley, well, they all they look alike to me. I mean, they're -

Stanley: That was the best way. I had one experience early on which defined and we had -

Barbara: Yeah.

Stanley: The office was at the house. And after the integration of the schools - not voluntary. Forced integration of schools. I was a young pastor and somebody from school called me and wanted to know if the, whatever the club for Home Ec was -

Barbara: Yeah.

Stanley: The club could come to church as a group. They liked to do that. So I said, okay. Of course. So they came and there were about 12, 15, 18 of them. And there were maybe two black girls in there.

Barbara: Yeah.

Stanley: Or one, I don't know, maybe two, but not more. And, oh my goodness, nobody said anything. Church was nice. Everybody was polite. But boy, did I have the shouters on my doorstep. And before one o’clock.

Barbara: Yeah, that afternoon. Yeah.

Stanley: Oh, my goodness, they were so upset. And I finally told them, I said, alright, you guys are so vehement, I'm going to go up to the school, and I'm going to just put a little thing on the wall, on the bulletin board. And I'm going to say, no student groups that are mixed race are welcome at Peace Lutheran church. They said, now, wait a minute. Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. We don't want you putting up. And I don't know if I would have, but they didn't know either.

Barbara: No. You probably would have.

Stanley: I might have. Because, because racism was so deep that if you didn't call its bluff once in a while, you just got run over.